Results of a tire placement test

[trimster]

When I replaced the drive axle(s) tires, I tried something. I had them put tires on the outside position of both axles. I kept the empty rims on the inside. Oh, was that a handful on the freeway.

The single tires wanted to roam in and out of the truck ruts. It was an active driving situation. When we got to Albq., NM, I had a shop put 2 more tires on the rear axle. Walaa... that settled the 'wandering' right down.

I'm happy with this final configuration. It's very 'driveable'.

[Wrknrvr]

    I have been running single tires on the outside since 2006, or there about.

it always drove great in my experience.

 

   Except when I had a set of (need Togo back in history to find the make of tires)tires. Within two miles I noticed a problem. Bought the new drive tire in Ocala Fl.

  But we had to pick up the fifth wheel and leave the next day for Arizona. While driving in Alabama, I had a situation arise that I had to do some hard braking.

 

   At one point I thought we were going to jackknife the rig, during that hard braking. Only thing ever changed were the tires.

    Went to the next Loves truck stop. Had a discussion about tires.  Had to use strong words. No swearing was used.

   They did not have the tires I originally wanted. But the next Loves truck stop did have them.

    Arrived at the next Loves truck stop . Had the tires installed that I originally wanted.

   I believe those tires are still on the truck.

[trimster]

Interesting. Might be tires as you indicated. I put on open shoulder with more aggressive tread. That might have something to do with how it was handling.

[Wrknrvr]

       I will find the brand and model tires later this week 

  my wife has surgery on Tuesday, so we are getting prepared for that subject. She needs to keep her head facing down say 50 minutes a hour for several days after the surgery. Even while sleeping?  

[Deezl Smoke]

On 6/8/2024 at 7:29 AM, trimster said:

When I replaced the drive axle(s) tires, I tried something. I had them put tires on the outside position of both axles. I kept the empty rims on the inside. Oh, was that a handful on the freeway.

The single tires wanted to roam in and out of the truck ruts. It was an active driving situation. When we got to Albq., NM, I had a shop put 2 more tires on the rear axle. Walaa... that settled the 'wandering' right down.

I'm happy with this final configuration. It's very 'driveable'.

 Do you have a local hd alignment specialist that you can consult about this? I am not familiar with Volvo at all, but 2015 is new enough to have lots of electrical sensors like traction control etc.

 I have driven many miles with  single outsides with no handling issues. But those miles were on older trucks without any sort of electronics.

 I just returned home from a short trip here in Oregon. My 2021 Pete has all that electronic crap on it. On US97 through Bend Oregon, those ruts you speak are studded tire caused, and in Bend, are small car studded tire ruts, making for very interesting driving of larger vehicles. My electronic "collision avoidance, predictive cruise" system noticed that the truck was wanting to wander in and out of these ruts, and put up a big red fault code, as well as automatically turning on traction control of which I could not cancel without stopping and shutting off the engine. Which I did as soon as I could safely do so. Thankfully that is a self cancelling fault. Traction control may mean different things to different manufacturers. I am currently running all 8 back there, but do plan to go to the four outsides soon.

 Before I left on this trip, I had replaced the air bags on the steering axle. It has that Paccar front air ride. (over rated IMO) So I called my local alignment specialist "Axle play" and had them come out to check alignment and make adjustments if needed. Everything was within Paccar spec, but not up to Axle play spec. So he adjusted the toe in. While visiting with the tech, he said they can make adjustments to make a truck drive any way the owner or operator wants them to drive. Incredible what they can do. But that they are limited on trucks with all this electronic equipment without having the owner sign a paper that they would have a tech with proper laptop software come in right behind the alignment to "re-calibrate" the system.

 Anyway, long way around saying maybe, not for certain, but maybe, it is not the tires that caused the wandering?

[trimster]

So, the traction control on mine is a switch. On or off. I'm sure there are some sensors active when 'on'. I rarely turn it on.

I do have mismatched steer tires. Same rating, size, and tread pattern, just different brands. One has a bit more wear than the other.

I did have the front-end suspension looked at, and it's within spec. Replaced the front shocks. They were toast. Probably need to dig into the rears one of these days.

So my only hard evidence/data.... with singles on each axle, it wanters. With the rear axle full, it doesn't.

[Jaydrvr]

By replaced, did you mean with new tires? Tall new tires typically feel like you're driving on rubber beads on the road and can be very squirrelly for a few thousand miles until they settle down. Eliminating half the tires would, I think, really exacerbate that. Jay

[trimster]

I gave them about 4k miles as a break in . Nothing substantial changed in the tracking behavior.

Concrete hwys that are flat, no issues. Asphalt with the ruts... It would dance side-to-side.

I did leave the empty rims on the inside position. Wonder if I pulled the empty set off the front drive axle, which would move those tires in about an inch, if that might help before I got the second set on the rear. Woulda, coulda, shoulda....maybe.

Edited June 10 by trimster

[Danfreda1]

Have open lug on the single axle kenworth. Drove like you described when it was new. Wasn’t until half of the tread was worn that it got better. Had a funny wear pattern, heal to toe on the lugs. Won’t put those tires on next time. Drives great on the flat concrete but the ruts are something else. 

[Randyretired]

I had a problem some years ago with a pickup.  Had open shoulder Cooper tires put on the rear in preparation for winter.  The truck wondered badly on the highway.   Had the front end checked, all was good.  Went back to the tire store and he drove it.  He said that truck is dangerous so he put the old tires back on.  The truck drove fine.  After talking with a Cooper rep he said sometimes different tires don't work together and refunded the cost.  Changed to another brand of open shoulder, traction tires and the truck drove fine.

[rpsinc]

There is some AMAZING experience in this thread.  I am also running only outsides on my 730, wheels in place on the inside, closed shoulder and virgin tires.  I also have over 6000# of pin and carry a Smart.  Yes, in ruts it takes me paying more attention but that happened when I was running all 8 tires back there.

The irony in my situation is that I had ONLY 84K miles on the tires I took off but they were 13YO and so I opted for replacing for MY OWN peace of mind.  I was able to sell the take offs to a O/O for his flatbed trailer, got some $ for them and added just $200 for my new drive tires, although sold tires was 8 and bought tires was 4.  Still a good situation.

Thanks to Wrknrvr for the help when I was making my decision.  Your experience was valuable.  

[rickeieio]

Having a full set of tires is no cause to expect that your vehicle won't follow rutted roads.  We're getting close to the end of a 10k+ mile trip, and I can tell you that with 8 virgin Michelins on the back, some roads were hard to keep in lane.

[SuiteSuccess]

14 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Having a full set of tires is no cause to expect that your vehicle won't follow rutted roads.  We're getting close to the end of a 10k+ mile trip, and I can tell you that with 8 virgin Michelins on the back, some roads were hard to keep in lane.

You sure it wasn’t the Bushmills?

[Darryl&Rita]

14 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Having a full set of tires is no cause to expect that your vehicle won't follow rutted roads.  We're getting close to the end of a 10k+ mile trip, and I can tell you that with 8 virgin Michelins on the back, some roads were hard to keep in lane.

A lot of that is due to the RV wheel track being different from the wheel track that set the ruts. Some of the highways up here, you can see the imprint from the individual wheels on the dual setups. Our RV wants to put one tire in the low point, but this pulls the other side up, onto the peak between the duals. Some roads are worse than others, but if the trucks aren't causing the ridge between the tires, we seldom notice any ruts.

[ddm502001]

Having been around HD Trucks since my youth days, running Single outs as a relatively permanent condition is not a good choice, with Steer Position is a designed value where the bearings are placed to manage the offset wheel center loading to those bearings, with a Rear Outer only are subjecting the Bearings and seals to off center pressure that was never intended even lightly loaded, the wheels themselves with the offset as well are pressure loading where will necessitate close periodic inspection of 'Hand Holes' on Aluminum Wheels and around lug nuts/studs, shock loads as Chuck Holes only exacerbate the problems.  Super Singles on Semis currently have a more centered Hub Flange and do not produce the loading characteristics.

[trimster]

I wondered about that load offset might stress the bearings. Thanks for the clarification.

[ddm502001]

There used to be Single Out style rims available on the Old Style Budds, have not seen those for the later Center Pilot Rims.  Will see those old style on Trailers primarily and often on Lift Axles, Flat Centers usually with a two to three inch To Center offset from Bead.

[Wrknrvr]

   Just a quick response as I am busy getting ready for a new adventure.

 

  On dual wheels on a truck? The center of the bearings are more towards the outside wheel.

  The inside wheel area is , say 70 percent brake assembly area.

 

  That is swag, as we are preparing for a really different adventure.

[ddm502001]

Actually Not, the Wheel bearings on Driving Hubs essentially Center at Rim Conjunction, Slightly further into Inner Wheel.  Brake Drum sits well inside of Inner wheel but the Inner Hub Bearing positions just inside the Flange of the Inner Wheel.  The design is a Balance of Load across Two Tires or as seen on the early SRW Duplex Tire sets the Axle Flange positions just inside of the Rim Outer Bead.  Newer trucks with the Super Single Duplex sets are designed for those, Banjo is Wider, Axles longer, for greater Width of COG angle.

This is Outboard Drums removed, the Seal only has a 5/8" lip from Inboard Hub edge where the Inner bearing race begins, the actual bearing situates right at centerline of Hub Flange for Drum.

Edited August 24 by ddm502001

[rickeieio]

While all of the above is true, if using single/outside wheels on a tandem axle, hauling a small vehicle (smart or jeep) and a hitch load of about 4,000#ish, one would still have that outside bearing loaded to perhaps half it's design load.

Axle bearings tend to last forever, given normal loads and just a bit of care.  For RV application, single outside rim, it's just a guess.

[jenandjon]

On 8/24/2024 at 5:56 AM, ddm502001 said:

Having been around HD Trucks since my youth days, running Single outs as a relatively permanent condition is not a good choice, with Steer Position is a designed value where the bearings are placed to manage the offset wheel center loading to those bearings, with a Rear Outer only are subjecting the Bearings and seals to off center pressure that was never intended even lightly loaded, the wheels themselves with the offset as well are pressure loading where will necessitate close periodic inspection of 'Hand Holes' on Aluminum Wheels and around lug nuts/studs, shock loads as Chuck Holes only exacerbate the problems.  Super Singles on Semis currently have a more centered Hub Flange and do not produce the loading characteristics.

I have to strongly disagree. You can run just the outers or duals the bearings don't care. Yes, I too have been around trucks all my life. I have asked a truck builder friend and several mechanics, and they all say it don't matter. 

[ddm502001]

Good luck to you, stress is a Odd Duck and dislikes carelessness.

[noteven]

If the bearing hypothesis hauling rv “hdt” weights is true, even “singled wide track”,  the wheels should fall right off western Canada logging trucks running winter load weights…

And what about pigeon toe arrangement on the front of a pickup dooly? 

[Phil D]

1 hour ago, noteven said:

And what about pigeon toe arrangement on the front of a pickup dooly? 

Any OEM hub is designed for the loads imposed by the original design, so if the front wheel arrangement of a dually was to impose an unusual load on the front hub, the hub would be designed to accommodate it.  That said, if you look closely at it, the hub is actually at or very close to the centerline of the wheel due to the spacers used to move the mounting surface of the wheels outboard to neutralize the extreme offset of the "dually" wheels.

[ddm502001]

ALL Hubs are designed with Centerline of Unsprung Weight and Defined Load Centered to the Tire(s).  Duals Hubs centerline the Bearings to the Wheel Faces junction, the Front hubs as Noted the Center of Bearings is at Centerline of the Tire.  Rims for Super Singles or Duplex Tires place Center of Tire Mass at Centerline of Bearings.

Edited August 29 by ddm502001